Transcript of the Video Interview with Jack El-Hai, Author of The Nazi and the Psychiatrist ( Nuremberg 2025 movie )

This is a detailed transcript of the video interview with the renowned journalist and author Jack El-Hai, on whose book The Nazi and the Psychiatrist the movie Nuremberg 2025 is based.

The Interview Transcript

The Movie Junkie: Hello.

Jack El-Hai: Hi.

The Movie Junkie: Hi, Jack. How are you?

Jack El-Hai: I'm good. Hope you're doing well too.

The Movie Junkie: I am. Yes. Lovely to see the same room again, with the tega from one of your relatives and that portrait—it looks like your daughter, right?

Jack El-Hai: Yes, that’s right. It’s the room I like to use for Zoom interviews.

The Movie Junkie: It's amazing. Really colorful and nice. Complete opposite of your book, by the way. But that’s reality, I guess. So thanks for talking to us. I wanted to ask: What is at the core of your book The Nazi and the Psychiatrist?

Jack El-Hai: My book focuses on the encounters between a U.S. Army psychiatrist named Douglas Kelly and the 22 members of the German High Command who were captured at the end of World War II.

These men were held first in Luxembourg, then later in Nuremberg, for trial on charges of war crimes, crimes against peace, and crimes against humanity. Dr. Kelly’s job was to assess whether these men suffered from psychiatric illness and whether they were mentally fit to stand trial.

That’s a low bar—it simply means they understand the charges, know right from wrong, and can participate in their defense. Kelly was very talented and was in a unique position, working among men seen as some of the worst criminals of the 20th century.

He went further and wanted to find out whether they shared any serious psychiatric illness that could explain their behavior. The final chapters of my book also explore what happened to Dr. Kelly afterward, as he entered a professional and personal decline.

The Movie Junkie: Yes, I read about how he took his life the same way as Göring. I can't help but think transference played a huge part. Don’t you think?

Jack El-Hai: One of my research questions was about the connection between Hermann Göring’s suicide and Dr. Kelly’s suicide 12 years later. Göring took cyanide hours before he was to be executed. Kelly took cyanide in front of his family years later. 

But I don’t think it was transference. Kelly saw Göring’s suicide as an act of defiance. They were both egotists—highly intelligent, manipulative, convinced of their own rightness. Their similar personalities, not transference, explain their similar method of suicide.

The Movie Junkie: There was something mentioned somewhere that Dr. Kelly bit down on the pill accidentally. Is that true?

Jack El-Hai: That comes from Kelly’s 10-year-old son, Doug, who was present. Doug was a major source for my book and had his father’s papers—fifteen boxes of them. Doug believed his father was acting out his distress in front of the family, and that he impulsively took the cyanide without fully intending to kill himself. Doug believed everyone—including Dr. Kelly—was surprised he actually ingested it.

The Movie Junkie: You said he took it from Doug’s hand—why did Doug have it?

Jack El-Hai: Doug didn’t have it. Dr. Kelly had cyanide in his own upstairs office. He was a professor and had a laboratory with chemicals. He simply had cyanide on hand.

The Movie Junkie: Thank you for clarifying. So I also looked at the timeline of Sigmund Freud. Psychiatry was in its infancy then, right?

Jack El-Hai: It was leaving its infancy. Freud practiced psychoanalysis, but that wasn’t the approach Kelly used. Freud’s therapy was new and not widely practiced. Kelly was more neuroscientifically oriented. He also relied on diagnostic tools like the Rorschach Inkblot Test, which he used with all the German defendants.

The Movie Junkie: Is the Rorschach test still relevant?

Jack El-Hai: Not in the way Kelly used it. In the 1930s and 40s, many psychiatrists used it to diagnose illnesses. Today that’s almost never the case. It’s used more as a personality assessment. But it did help Kelly conclude that the defendants didn’t share psychiatric illness—except possibly one, Robert Ley.

The Movie Junkie: Yes, Robert Ley—the labor affairs person.

Jack El-Hai: Right. Kelly suspected Ley had brain damage, possibly from an earlier airplane accident.

The Movie Junkie: I saw in a movie that someone asks what distinguishes these men from average people, and the answer was “nothing.” But you’re saying that’s not quite true.

Jack El-Hai: Correct. Kelly identified some shared traits: — Overworking — Lack of empathy and compassion — Lack of conscience (meaning: no remorse) This does border on psychopathy, but those terms were new in the 1940s and Kelly may not have known them.

The Movie Junkie: And Kelly’s own decline—was his fear of government persecution paranoia or partly true?

Jack El-Hai: Partly true. He criticized the quality of police recruits at a police chiefs’ convention. A chief reported him to the FBI. The FBI investigated him. So there was some factual basis. But his mental state amplified the fear.

The Movie Junkie: Does your book suggest that evil is contagious?

Jack El-Hai: No. Neither Kelly nor I believe that. But there are always people in society who want to control others. They exist in all professions and eras. We must be vigilant, especially in democratic societies.

The Movie Junkie: So don’t let evil manifest collectively—do your part.

Jack El-Hai: Yes. Make their path as difficult as possible. Slow them down so good can catch up.

The Movie Junkie: That’s very nicely put. About your current Commander-in-Chief—Mr. Donald Trump—would you share what you feel?

Jack El-Hai: My belief is that President Trump is part of that authoritarian strand. He mobilizes followers through emotional, not rational, appeals. I consider him a threat to democracy. If Kelly were alive, I think he’d agree.

The Movie Junkie: If you were to highlight three policies that would better America under the current presidency, what would they be?

Jack El-Hai: I’ll quote Kelly’s plan for preserving democracy:

1. Make voting easier, not harder. Many forces now work to make voting harder.

2. Promote critical thinking in education. Decisions should be based on evidence and experience, not grievance.

3. Reject leaders who gain power by attacking people’s race, religion, or ethnicity. It’s illegitimate and dangerous.

The Movie Junkie: That maps perfectly onto what’s happening today. Talk about German doctors’ human experiments—some of that data is still used today?

Jack El-Hai: Yes. There were 13 Nuremberg trials after the main one. One was the Doctors’ Trial, focused on medical experimentation. Some data collected unethically by Nazi physicians ended up in medical literature. It’s a serious ethical problem.

The Movie Junkie: Is there a way to remedy that?

Jack El-Hai: That’s beyond my expertise. But theoretically yes—there’s always a way.

The Movie Junkie: I had a Dark Knight quote that would fit but you negated the theme. Something like “die a hero or live long enough to become the villain.” Apparently Göring said all the “no men” were dead under Hitler. Is that accurate?

Jack El-Hai: Yes. Göring said opposition meant death, so only “yes men” survived. But that’s not a justification for supporting the regime.

The Movie Junkie: Could he have been a conscientious objector?

Jack El-Hai: Göring joined early because the party was small and he could climb quickly. It was about personal power.

The Movie Junkie: Is it true he showed off his loot to Dr. Kelly?

Jack El-Hai: Yes. When arrested, he had jewellery, valuables, and thousands of narcotic tablets—he was addicted. Kelly helped him end that addiction by appealing to his vanity: “You are not like most men. You are stronger.” It worked.

The Movie Junkie: Did any other defendants use such substances?

Jack El-Hai: Not that I know of. Soldiers used methamphetamine, not leadership.

The Movie Junkie: In India, mental health is still stigmatized. How is it in the U.S.?

Jack El-Hai: Outside my expertise, but I can say Kelly himself felt stigma—he refused to see a psychiatrist because he feared it would damage his credibility. That’s part of the problem.

The Movie Junkie: Can we know about your next book?

Jack El-Hai: I’ve just finished a manuscript called The Case of the Autographed Corpse, publishing in fall 2026. It’s a historical true crime case about an Apache medicine man wrongfully convicted of murdering his wife in the 1930s. He eventually sought help from author Erle Stanley Gardner’s “Court of Last Resort,” and they proved his innocence.

The Movie Junkie: Very compelling. I’ll read it after your first book. So what kind of movies do you watch? And what was it like interacting with Rami Malek?

Jack El-Hai: I spoke to him at the beginning of filming and again on set in Hungary. He had ideas about portraying Dr. Kelly, and I liked what he was doing. As for films, my favorite is The Third Man—wonderful story, great acting, cinematography, and music.

The Movie Junkie: Any other movies you watch?

Jack El-Hai: I like thrillers. I don’t watch comic-book movies anymore—I read enough comics as a teenager. I love documentaries.

The Movie Junkie: Your favorite documentary?

Jack El-Hai: The Thin Blue Line (about a wrongfully convicted prisoner). I like nonfiction films; I focus on how the filmmaker structures the story.

The Movie Junkie: Do you have any comfort watches—documentaries or feature films that you watch on repeat? Or do you not rewatch things much?

Jack El-Hai: The only film I’ve watched more than twice is The Third Man. And one other: The Wizard of Oz, because I watched it so much when I was a child. I haven’t seen it for a long time now, but it has a dark background—the asbestos poisoning, and Judy Garland being treated badly.

The Movie Junkie: Yes, I’ve read those things. But the movie itself is fun.

Jack El-Hai: The movie is really fun.

The Movie Junkie: What about series? Any you watch?

Jack El-Hai: Well, Severance was good.

The Movie Junkie: You watch Severance? Oh, awesome.

Jack El-Hai: Yes, I liked it. Two very good series I’ve seen recently: One is called A French Village. It’s long—maybe 70 episodes—and it’s about what happened in a French village during World War II when German soldiers occupied it. 

Another one I liked very much is Patria, a Spanish series. It’s about neighbors in the Basque region—where people speak a different language, have their own culture, and have been fighting for independence for a long time. And it’s about how neighbors behave toward each other when some believe strongly in independence and others don’t.

The Movie Junkie: That’s great. One good thing is I already know you don’t watch reality TV, which is awesome, because I don’t think it should exist. They did make a movie—but basically it’s a book—The Running Man by Stephen King. Familiar with it?

Jack El-Hai: I’m not familiar with it.

 But reality TV should not exist. I completely agree with that. It brings out the worst in people. It’s scripted, and still ends up worse than it’s supposed to be—but people still watch it. They watch it everywhere, even here in India. It’s not a good thing.

Jack El-Hai: Oh, same here. People watch it everywhere.

 And yes—Donald Trump came out of reality TV.

The Movie Junkie: Oh yes.

The Movie Junkie: People can take that in two ways. Some who support him will probably take it as a good thing—that he came out of The Apprentice. It was a good show until a certain point, and then it devolved. 

It was heartbreaking seeing Gene Simmons go on The Apprentice. He’s the epitome of rock-and-roll, freedom, rebellion—yet he went to be an “apprentice.” It felt like an oxymoron. Of course, he may have been paid well, but still. Gene Simmons is from KISS, right?

Jack El-Hai: Yes.

The Movie Junkie: So yes—reality TV is bad. Coming to your views on religion: regardless of the religion one belongs to, what do you think of a higher entity? How does it affect the way we live, our actions, and our effect on others? What role does religion play in our lives? And—are you a believer? Do you believe in God? Are you an atheist or agnostic?

Jack El-Hai: I support religion when it leads people to do good, and I condemn it when it leads people to do bad. I don’t want to get into my own religious beliefs, but in general, that’s how I feel about religion.

The Movie Junkie: That’s great. The problem is—even a principle that simple, people tend to mess up.

Jack El-Hai: Mhm.

The Movie Junkie: That’s a great way to hold an opinion about religion. And that’s about it for my prepared questions. If you don’t mind, I’ll just scan through quickly to see if I missed anything.

Jack El-Hai: Sure.

The Movie Junkie: A few random things—Douglas E. Kelly’s initials are D.E.K., and D.M.K… I was so close to the name of the Predator in Predator: Badlands. But yes—that’s about it, Jack.

Jack El-Hai: Okay. Thank you for your thoughtful questions, Yadav. I appreciate it and the time you spent. I look forward to seeing what you make of all this.

The Movie Junkie: Thanks so much, and thanks for everything. Do you have any last questions for me?

Jack El-Hai: I don’t think so. I think we’ve covered a lot of ground.

The Movie Junkie: Yep. Thanks so much, Jack. Have a great day.

Jack El-Hai: You too. Bye-bye.

The Movie Junkie: Bye.